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#26 2010-02-25 09:37:30

zeromus
Radical Ninja
Registered: 2009-01-05
Posts: 4,481

Re: Filters and resolution

And then theres the fact that the opengl renderer is junk and if you use it youre dumb.

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#27 2010-02-25 15:18:47

shash
Administrator
Registered: 2007-03-17
Posts: 897

Re: Filters and resolution

Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:

I said I've heard - I haven't any actual proof though.

Even then, that's no good for Intel GPUs.  Sure they're reletively weak, but these are DS graphics - I'm sure it'd be fine, enough to the point of being able to enable some anti-aliasing.

As far as I know, you can force anti-aliasing on Intel GPUs, at least on my laptops dual-GPU, so, again, your point being?

zeromus wrote:

And then theres the fact that the opengl renderer is junk and if you use it youre dumb.

Are there, for any chance, a list of bugs available? (I guess not) I would be willing to work now and then on fixing whatever I can, if someone is kind enough to point bug reproducing scenarios.

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#28 2010-02-25 17:31:36

zeromus
Radical Ninja
Registered: 2009-01-05
Posts: 4,481

Re: Filters and resolution

Some of the bugs are flagged as such in the sf bug tracker, but mostly our testers quit worrying about it. In the next version soft rasterizer will be the default. The bugs mostly involve blending and polyids as you would expect, with some extra subtle bugs involving very close z-values. Its not really bugs at this point as much as it is just things which are really hard to emulate with ogl.

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#29 2010-02-25 20:00:13

Nintendo Maniac 64
Member
From: Northeast Ohio, USA
Registered: 2010-02-24
Posts: 92

Re: Filters and resolution

shash wrote:

As far as I know, you can force anti-aliasing on Intel GPUs, at least on my laptops dual-GPU, so, again, your point being?

Oh?  That's interesting... the Intel 945 GPU in my sister's laptop can't handle any AA, but it can fore 4x anisotropic filtering.

Manivo wrote:

While I figure it's possible to increase the displayed 3d resolution on the emulator level, you're forgetting its not all 3d. Many games (all?) use 2d sprites inside the 3d engine - and even if they don't, the textures covering the 3d constructs are 2d. Now, you can blow up 3d data to whatever resolution you want - that doesn't work for 2d.

In the end you'll have a high resolution 3d world inhabited by some INCREDIBLY blocky 2d sprites, and worse off, incredibly blocky textures - and there goes clarity out the window.

I think you missed the part where I mentioned an option for trilinear filtering.  Also I was never talking about 2D games anyway.


Manivo wrote:

But the most important point here is that the developer you're trying to pester into implementing things you want - Zeromus - just doesn't want to do it. Realize that this is a hobby project, and while suggestions are welcomed and even tolerated to the point of explaining and debating them you've gone way beyond the realm of debating your suggestion. You're attempting to force it down a developer's throat.

I would seem you also missed the part where I wasn't arguing based on practicality (this is the 3rd time i've said this now).  Basically I was arguing against zeromus's stance and dislike on high-resolutions, not his refusal to implement it (he said it was incredibly difficult - a valid reason in my book)

Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 (2011-01-02 19:12:29)

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#30 2010-02-25 21:04:48

shash
Administrator
Registered: 2007-03-17
Posts: 897

Re: Filters and resolution

Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:
shash wrote:

As far as I know, you can force anti-aliasing on Intel GPUs, at least on my laptops dual-GPU, so, again, your point being?

Oh?  That's interesting... the Intel 945 GPU in my sister's laptop can handle some minor anti-aliasing (I think only 2x) yet there's no option to force it.

Just checked, and only anisotropic filtering is available, no support for any kind of anti-aliasing, so you were right. Is anti-aliasing even noticeable on the 256*192 display of the DS? (Comparison pics would be nice) If so, I'll implement it whenever I've a few free time, but only on the openGL renderer (implementing it on the software renderer would probably be painful).

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#31 2010-02-26 04:07:27

Nintendo Maniac 64
Member
From: Northeast Ohio, USA
Registered: 2010-02-24
Posts: 92

Re: Filters and resolution

Well, my Radeon 9600 only goes up to 6xAA, so I can't get the best results.  I'll still check though.

EDIT: HA!  I'll be darned, I can actually see a difference!  It's not much, but it's enough to notice (yet again, only 6xAA - at this low res you need a LOT)

0xAA:
no%20zoom%20%2B%20no%20AA.PNG

6xAA:
no%20zoom%20%2B%20AA.PNG

2x zoom 0xAA:
2x%20zoom%20%2B%20no%20AA.PNG

2x zoom 6xAA:
2x%20zoom%20%2B%20AA.PNG

Now we just need trilinear filtering & AF wink  Also an option to disable the zoom filter would be nice (aka just plain nearest neighbor - may even be useful for 3D when using tons of AA), along with your typical texture upscaling filters (your hq2/3/4x and stuff)


If someone's got a new and high-end GPU, I'd love to see some crazy-high AA shots (preferably using the same game/track/character I did for comparison)  According to Google, some have actually used up to 32xAA O_o

Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 (2010-02-26 05:39:21)

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#32 2010-02-26 09:22:46

Manivo
Awesome Possum
Registered: 2009-02-15
Posts: 655

Re: Filters and resolution

You seem to be on a streak of not reading what people are typing. I -highly- suggest that you take more time to read (even re-read!) things you reply to before zealously running to the reply button to tappity-tap your responses.

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#33 2010-02-26 09:25:50

Nintendo Maniac 64
Member
From: Northeast Ohio, USA
Registered: 2010-02-24
Posts: 92

Re: Filters and resolution

And yet again, you, just like zeromus, assume that I'm not reading.  I AM READING, just not apparently understanding.


Tell you what, I'll do you a favor and reread your comment twice over, both times quite slowly, and type a second response.  However this will have to wait until tomorrow when I'm mentally up to par since it's VERY late here.

Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 (2010-02-26 09:29:13)

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#34 2010-02-26 11:22:49

Manivo
Awesome Possum
Registered: 2009-02-15
Posts: 655

Re: Filters and resolution

Reading is not the mere act of going over the words, it is also taking the time to comprehend them. Claiming I was in any way talking about 2D games implies that you took very little time to actually comprehend what I wrote.

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#35 2010-02-26 12:56:06

shash
Administrator
Registered: 2007-03-17
Posts: 897

Re: Filters and resolution

Ok, let's sum it up. What might seem 2D games, might be 3D games (using the DS 3D engine). It's not easy (mostly not possible without some huge amount of hacking) to be able to differentiate them. Add what zeromus already stated about filtering the 3D output having a considerable amount of glitches, and the most you can hope is anti-aliasing.

About hacking the 3D engine to recognize 2D elements, it's possible but will break on too many situations to be stable enough to be committed on desmume.

And that's all the facts, so let's stop discussing it, ok?

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#36 2010-02-26 17:27:06

zeromus
Radical Ninja
Registered: 2009-01-05
Posts: 4,481

Re: Filters and resolution

Here's my sum-up:

1. once an emulator matures and we have a good 3d debugger, it could be fun to support a database of gamecode ^ texture hash = texture filtering properties

2. Someone could hack FSAA into the opengl driver

3. As long as I am around, nobody is going to butcher the emulator to support high res 3d.

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#37 2010-02-26 19:59:22

Nintendo Maniac 64
Member
From: Northeast Ohio, USA
Registered: 2010-02-24
Posts: 92

Re: Filters and resolution

Sounds good to me zeromus, except for one thing - would you still prevent someone from adding high-resolutions even if it didn't butcher the emulator? (this is a HYPOTHETICAL question - I trying to see if your love for low-res would get in the way of even a working implementation)

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#38 2010-02-26 20:24:38

zeromus
Radical Ninja
Registered: 2009-01-05
Posts: 4,481

Re: Filters and resolution

I am an ornery ass and do everything I can to obstruct things I don't like. Sometimes I even do work just to create things that other people will want to use in ways I don't like, just so I can have the joy of obstructing it. That's why I disabled the use of pokemon roms in the emulator. Oh wait, I didn't do that yet. Maybe I should.

I decline to be goaded. It isn't possible. Forget about it.

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#39 2010-02-26 20:27:16

Nintendo Maniac 64
Member
From: Northeast Ohio, USA
Registered: 2010-02-24
Posts: 92

Re: Filters and resolution

After all that hi-res hating, I had to make sure. :P

OFFTOPIC:  and goaded?  Congrats on using a word I've never seen or heard in my entire life XD, and I have a lot of older book-smart people in my family too. *goes to the internet*

Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 (2010-02-26 20:29:40)

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#40 2010-02-26 21:20:03

shash
Administrator
Registered: 2007-03-17
Posts: 897

Re: Filters and resolution

zeromus wrote:

(...)

2. Someone could hack FSAA into the opengl driver

(...)

I'll check later and, if you don't mind it, if FSAA gives any visual improvement (the screenshots didn't seem to show that), I'll add it to the openGL driver.

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#41 2010-02-26 21:25:12

Nintendo Maniac 64
Member
From: Northeast Ohio, USA
Registered: 2010-02-24
Posts: 92

Re: Filters and resolution

shash wrote:

(the screenshots didn't seem to show that)

If you look closely, there IS a slight difference (like Yoshi's shadow).  However, like I said, my GPU is limited to 6xAA, and for these low resolutions you'll need a higher amount to really get the benefit, not to mention newer GPUs do AA better period (4xAA on my Radeon 9600 won't compare to say a 5870's 4xAA).  So please don't judge entirely on those.

So uh, does this seriously mean that nobody here has a better GPU than me for making a better comparison with higher AA amounts?

Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 (2010-02-26 21:26:27)

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#42 2010-02-26 21:43:40

shash
Administrator
Registered: 2007-03-17
Posts: 897

Re: Filters and resolution

Perhaps my post wasn't clear, but I said I'll check later (meaning I've a GPU capable of more than simple 4x).

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#43 2010-02-26 21:45:49

Nintendo Maniac 64
Member
From: Northeast Ohio, USA
Registered: 2010-02-24
Posts: 92

Re: Filters and resolution

Oh, when you said you'll check later, I thought you meant that you would check the opengl driver.

It also seems I got no response on an option for disabling the zoom filter... (AKA just plain nearest neighbor scaling instead)


Also, I should mention that the reason I kept suggesting trilinear filtering is because no amount of anti-aliasing is going to eliminate jagged-pixelated textures.  Also AFAIK, anisotropic filtering is basically pointless without trilinear filtering.

Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 (2010-02-26 22:01:31)

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#44 2010-02-26 22:11:08

zeromus
Radical Ninja
Registered: 2009-01-05
Posts: 4,481

Re: Filters and resolution

Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:

It also seems I got no response on an option for disabling the zoom filter... (AKA just plain nearest neighbor scaling instead)

Option will be in 0.9.6 called displaymode > directdraw SW

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#45 2010-02-26 22:13:05

Nintendo Maniac 64
Member
From: Northeast Ohio, USA
Registered: 2010-02-24
Posts: 92

Re: Filters and resolution

zeromus wrote:
Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:

It also seems I got no response on an option for disabling the zoom filter... (AKA just plain nearest neighbor scaling instead)

Option will be in 0.9.6 called displaymode > directdraw SW

This doesn't use the software renderer, right?  Because my thinking is that if you use incredibly high amounts of AA, you may not even need the zoom filter.

...though that brings up an interesting thought.  What about 3x and 4x zoom?  Would it be in some way possible to use a filter for those while being based on the 2x nearest neighbor zoom?

Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 (2010-02-26 22:15:29)

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#46 2010-02-26 22:30:30

zeromus
Radical Ninja
Registered: 2009-01-05
Posts: 4,481

Re: Filters and resolution

no, it doesnt use the software renderer. it prevents directdraw from blurring when resizing up. when using this option you will get nearest-neighbor regardless of what window size you use--2x, 3x, 3.77193x, 100x

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#47 2010-02-26 22:36:26

Nintendo Maniac 64
Member
From: Northeast Ohio, USA
Registered: 2010-02-24
Posts: 92

Re: Filters and resolution

Good, I was just being paranoid on that one tongue

But what about the 2nd part of what I said?  Basically I'm thinking that even with a ton of AA, 3x zoom and higher will still look too blocky, but the filtered zoom would be too blurry.  That's where I was suggesting the ability to filter the image based on 2x nearest neighbor zoom.


EDIT: Using this 32xAA image as an example, at least when rendering at 1024x768, 2x nearest neighbor still looks good while 3x is borderline.  However this is 4x the width and height resolution of 256x192, so who knows. (I'm using a CRT however, so the polygon edges when using nearest neighbor aren't as noticeable as on an LCD)

EDIT 2: Ok, it looks like my expectations were a bit overkill.  Turns out that (at least when rendering @ 1024x768) that 4x nearest neighbor looks practically equal to 2x nearest neighbor then 2x bilinear.  At the same time 4x bilinear looks practically the same as 2x bilinear then 2x nearest neighbor.  4x nearest neighbor is just too blocky plain and simple (unless you're on a ridiculously high DPI screen)

EDIT 3: As expected, bilinear looks much better than nearest neighbor at 1.5x.  At 2.5x, things get a bit interesting.  As expected, 2.5x nearest neighbor looks the worst followed by 1.25x bilinear -> 2x nearest neighbor.  However, 2.5x bilinear and 2x nearest neighbor -> 1.25x bilinear are both equally good for different reasons - the former is smoother while the latter is sharper (just like 3x bilinear vs 3x nearest neighbor).

EDIT 4: And the results for 3x are similar to 4x.  1.5x bilinear -> 2x nearest neighbor looks like the crappiness of 2.5x nearest neighbor with the blurriness of bilinear, aka no good.  Switching the process to 2x nearest neighbor -> 1.5x bilinear gives a better result, but it looks practically the same as 3x nearest neighbor.


Therefore, we can conclude that the only one we'd need to worry about is 2.5x zoom, since plain 2.5x nearest neighbor looks like crap but 2x nearest neighbor -> 1.25x bilinear looks much better.

Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 (2010-02-26 23:41:17)

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#48 2010-02-26 23:38:42

zeromus
Radical Ninja
Registered: 2009-01-05
Posts: 4,481

Re: Filters and resolution

I dont understand what youre saying. "filter the image based on 2x nearest neighbor zoom" is nonsense, nearest neighbor is NO filtering. Keep in mind that any bilinear you see on your monitor from resizing the desmume output window is directdraw's doing and not mine. Theres nothing I can do about it, except to disable it in desmume 0.9.6

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#49 2010-02-26 23:43:24

Nintendo Maniac 64
Member
From: Northeast Ohio, USA
Registered: 2010-02-24
Posts: 92

Re: Filters and resolution

If you read all of my edits (which I'm assuming you hadn't at the time of posting), especially my conclusion at the end, you'll see that I meant doing nearest neighbor scaling followed by bilinear.  This is particularly useful for non-multiple size ratios (such as 2.5x) where you could do nearest neighbor scaling to 2x size, then bilinear up to the final 2.5x.

Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 (2010-02-26 23:45:10)

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#50 2010-02-26 23:45:22

zeromus
Radical Ninja
Registered: 2009-01-05
Posts: 4,481

Re: Filters and resolution

So you want a new render filter to achieve the exact 2.5 zoom you crave? Put it in the feature tracker and see if it ever gets done.

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