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#1 2010-01-16 13:43:03

Ghostroo
Member
Registered: 2010-01-16
Posts: 3

Filters and resolution

I noticed that with every 2X filter that DeSmuME uses, the screen size of the DS window is always stretched-to-fit (256x384 screen in a 512x768 window). Many 3D games however don't benefit from this (eg = Mario Kart DS / Nanostray 2) as the screen becomes quite pixelated and dithered, generally allot of detail gets muddled between models and backgrounds. I'm curious, are any of the DeSmuME developers planning in the future to make an option so instead of stretching a screen to fit, that it actually shows a 512x768 screen on a 512x768 window, with or without a FSAA mode.

I'm just curious if the idea has been planned or has the possibility been set aside due to technical issues.

And just to state my appreciation, DeSmuME is quite an impressive feat over many of the other DS emulators I've used (or tried to use). I can honestly say this has come along way since the DS emulator scene started and I'd like to say thanks to the developers for allot of the effort you guys put in to this project.

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#2 2010-01-16 19:08:21

zeromus
Radical Ninja
Registered: 2009-01-05
Posts: 4,668

Re: Filters and resolution

it might get done one day, but not for a long time. it is technically complicated. it requires adding junk to the 2d/3d mixing system, because the 2d stuff would have to be up-rezzed in order to blend with a up-rezzed 3d, and it will require hacks in the capture system, which can only send 256x192 back to the game software. since this is what games use for dual screen 3d, those games would be stuck with low resolution 3d without hacks which are too grave for me to contemplate, much less describe.  And on top of all that, it has no value to me because I like the 3d being low resolution, so it is the lowest possible priority.

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#3 2010-01-16 20:24:57

Ghostroo
Member
Registered: 2010-01-16
Posts: 3

Re: Filters and resolution

No worries then. Still as I've said before, this project has come a long way since the very first batch of DS emulators. Currently on quality and compatibility, DeSmuME seems to stand out on top (at least I have not run in to any issues at this current time). Thank you again for doing an excellent job. Good luck with getting to 1.0.0 and future versions.

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#4 2010-02-24 05:37:00

Nintendo Maniac 64
Member
From: Northeast Ohio, USA
Registered: 2010-02-24
Posts: 92

Re: Filters and resolution

zeromus wrote:

I like the 3d being low resolution

...seriously? O_o  I would take 2x resolution over 2x zoom any day.  May I ask why you're so partial to low-res 3D?


Either way, what about AA/AF?  You can still have your beloved low-res, but them jaggies man, them jaggies.

Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 (2010-02-24 05:40:49)

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#5 2010-02-24 07:57:12

zeromus
Radical Ninja
Registered: 2009-01-05
Posts: 4,668

Re: Filters and resolution

AA and AF are possible for anyone who feels like implementing them; however, if done in the opengl port, that person had better keep in mind how flaky opengl drivers tend to be.\

I like low resolution 3d for the same reason I don't peer at turds with a magnifying lens.

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#6 2010-02-24 08:55:56

Nintendo Maniac 64
Member
From: Northeast Ohio, USA
Registered: 2010-02-24
Posts: 92

Re: Filters and resolution

Turds?  You're strictly a 2D gamer, aren't you?

Some of us don't think that DS/N64 level 3D graphics always look like turds.  Simplistic, perhaps, but ugly?  Depends on the work put into it.  I would imagine that higher res + texture filtering would help these "turd" graphics quite a lot.

...speaking of which, any plans for trilinear texture filtering at all?  Or do you prefer PS1-styled textures over N64-styled as well?


EDIT: Using an N64 game as an example, you mean to tell me you would seriously take the following 1st (and maybe the 2nd) image over the 3rd?  You can't even read the word before "International" in the 1st and 2nd screenshots!

Native resolution:
320x240.png

2x zoom w/ bilinear filter:
2xBilinear320x240.png

2x width & height resolution:
640x480.png


And you can't say that you'd choose the 1st image because it's smaller, because with ever-increasing DPIs, you do realize that there gets to be a point where things get to be too small for a person to see well, right?  Eventually you'll HAVE to zoom the picture or have to lower your monitors resolution to a non-native resolution.  Since the latter looks moderately crappy most of the time, you'll have to either sit 30cm/1ft from your screen (honestly?) or crank up the zoom.  But since rendering at a higher resolution will look better than just upscaling, in the end a higher res is the way to go.

Awaiting to respond to your next rebuttal.

Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 (2010-02-24 09:55:18)

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#7 2010-02-24 17:45:53

zeromus
Radical Ninja
Registered: 2009-01-05
Posts: 4,668

Re: Filters and resolution

I like #2. I dont like seeing polygons. I like seeing blobs of pixels.
I _like_ ds 3d graphics. I like low poly 3d models. But the higher resolution primitive 3d geometry is, the more obviously it is turdish.
Rendering at higher resolution doesn't look better than just upscaling, unless you have the geometry to match it.
Regarding texture filtering in desmume, I am unconcerned with anything other than DS emulation. I personally like the way the non-filtered textures look in many games where they are used appropriately. Filtering may salvage some games which look terrible. Someone else can add texture filtering if they want.

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#8 2010-02-24 18:31:07

Nintendo Maniac 64
Member
From: Northeast Ohio, USA
Registered: 2010-02-24
Posts: 92

Re: Filters and resolution

wait, you like #2 of all images?! O_o

You like pixels but not polygons.  I hate to break it to ya, but these are polygons, not pixels! (do you get why I got the impression that you're a 2D guy now?)  This makes me think that you LIKE the jaggies; really now?

And I don't know about you, but seeing that I at times game with a 55 year-old father with not-so-good-eyes, clarity is a very important thing.  We didn't realize it at the time, but he actually does much better on Mario Kart 64 splitscreen for the Wii because it renders in a higher resolution! (160x120 per quadrant on N64, 320x240 on Wii).

If you truly hate polygons that much, then perhaps you'd enjoy a tessellation engine or something? (I realize that's out of reach currently, but discussing practicality isn't the point here)


zeromus wrote:

Rendering at higher resolution doesn't look better than just upscaling, unless you have the geometry to match it.

Did you not even see where you can read the word "Circuit" in the 3rd image but not the 1st & 2nd?  And the checkered start line doesn't even look nicely-checkered in the 1st & 2st images.  It's not about adding to the geometry, it's about CLARITY!  The lower the resolution, the less you can see - for racing games, this is no good.  And don't get me started on external hi-res textures - those things can do WONDERS for low-polygon models.

Really, I myself dislike seeing what a call "straight polygons", but even more I HATE uber low resolutions, and the DS's 256x192 falls into that category.  Using upscaling instead of "up-res-ing" as to prevent showing their "turdness" just sounds like "ignorance is bliss" to me, and I'm decidedly in the "ignorance is ignorance, not bliss" department.


Awaiting to respond to your next rebuttal yet again.

Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 (2010-02-24 19:07:58)

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#9 2010-02-24 19:05:58

zeromus
Radical Ninja
Registered: 2009-01-05
Posts: 4,668

Re: Filters and resolution

I do like the jaggies. I don't mind pixels.

I like it when polygons are used to create an abstract, low resolution effect like pixels.  I don't hate polygons, I hate high resolution polygons that make my game look like it was built out of erector set parts. Take a car made out of erector set parts and jack down the resolution and move it around fast and now it looks like a pixel car with infinite frames.

Also, high resolution polygons without matching detail looks amateurish.  When you take a game that was meant to run at low resolution and jack it up, you have what looks like an amateur production.

I am uninterested in clarity or realism. Youre just going to have to accept this. I am interested in visual style and what you consider defects I consider brushstrokes.

I will concede that the only 3d game I regularly play is doom, and I play it in an engine with jacked up resolution and AF. This is more out of necessity for high performance fragging, and for filling up my monitor without going fullscreen than it is out of desire for something that looks better. If you played some 3d DS game as much as I played doom then I guess I couldnt blame you for wanting to jazz it up with all the perks you possibly could.

And I'm not sure what this has to do with anything, but: mark me down in the ignorance is bliss column.

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#10 2010-02-24 19:14:14

Nintendo Maniac 64
Member
From: Northeast Ohio, USA
Registered: 2010-02-24
Posts: 92

Re: Filters and resolution

The main issue is that you believe that clarity = realism.  I definitely don't care for realism, but clarity I WILL fight for.  A good example is Zelda Wind Waker - it obviously isn't realistic, but rendered in HD, it's one of the most beautiful games I've seen.  Heck even the more-realistic Twilight Princess doesn't doesn't look as good in HD IMO!

But you'll probably say "that's a GCN game - it doesn't have low polygon counts".  But ya see, unlike you, I have no problem with low polygon counts.  The only thing that annoys me about low polygon counts is when they seem out of place - mostly on newer systems (this is that "straight polygon" thing I was talking about).  On the DS however, that is the standard due to performance constraints, so it doesn't really bother me one bit.

Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 (2010-02-24 19:25:40)

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#11 2010-02-24 19:23:54

zeromus
Radical Ninja
Registered: 2009-01-05
Posts: 4,668

Re: Filters and resolution

I dont believe that clarity = realism. I just threw that out there in case you were a realism nut. Realism nuts are usually into the clarity also. However, too much clarity can demolish fantasy by revealing the fakeness--unless, as I have said, the detail is so much that holding up a magnifying lens reveals just more detailed fantasy. This is why in my mind uprezzing emulation really has nothing to do with cutting edge 3d games. Uprezzing emulation is almost certainly false clarity revealing fake fantasy. Uprezzing a good looking 3d game may make it that much more engrossing a fantasy, although this is all conjectural on my part because I havent played a new 3d game on a big console since dragon quest 8.

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#12 2010-02-24 19:28:18

Nintendo Maniac 64
Member
From: Northeast Ohio, USA
Registered: 2010-02-24
Posts: 92

Re: Filters and resolution

Well, one thing also is that you're basing this on Doom.

I too have played it in high res (1360x768 in fact).  Yes it looks somewhat amateurish, but who cares?  The game plays as and is still Doom.

And here's the most important thing - you seem to have forgotten that the DS and N64 handle many more polygons than Doom did - more on par with Quake II actually (see Quake II on N64/PS1 and the homebrew DS port).  Remember, there were frickin SNES and GBA ports of Doom! (with lower texture detail, but the polygons were all there)

IMO, I don't think you're giving DS/N64/PS1/Sat-level 3D enough credit.

Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 (2010-02-24 19:35:59)

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#13 2010-02-24 19:37:56

zeromus
Radical Ninja
Registered: 2009-01-05
Posts: 4,668

Re: Filters and resolution

What are you talking about? I give them plenty of credit. Youre not reading what I am typing. Old super good games look amateurish when specific hacks are applied to their graphics by emulators. Old super good games in their original context do not look amateurish. And then I tried to make it clear that I don't even play new 3d games. So it can't be that I am enamoured with new stuff and don't give old consoles their due.

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#14 2010-02-24 19:57:07

Nintendo Maniac 64
Member
From: Northeast Ohio, USA
Registered: 2010-02-24
Posts: 92

Re: Filters and resolution

Wait, so you're one of those "play it how it was originally"?

Yeah... When even Nintendo ups the resolution of N64 games to 640x480 on the virtual console, I don't think we should stick by the original resolution so defiantly. (remember, that's the same service that doesn't use any sort of filter at all for NES and SNES games - in fact SNES games apparently are EXACTLY how they looked on the system via composite)

Hate to break it to ya, but a higher resolution isn't a "hack".  Several games on the N64 even ran at 480i with the expansion pack (Rogue Squadron is probably the most notable).

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#15 2010-02-24 20:23:26

zeromus
Radical Ninja
Registered: 2009-01-05
Posts: 4,668

Re: Filters and resolution

This discussion bores me. I call higher resolution in an emulator a hack. It may be an enhancement or it may be a dehancement depending upon the details. Ive given you my framework for analyzing things, and I am not going to debate it. It's my opinion, and you're entitled to think it is every bit as much horseshit as I think your opinion is, and whatever nintendo does may or may not be horseshit.  Anything else we need to wrap up here?

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#16 2010-02-24 20:51:31

Nintendo Maniac 64
Member
From: Northeast Ohio, USA
Registered: 2010-02-24
Posts: 92

Re: Filters and resolution

uhh... I think that a function (higher resolution) that's standard in other emulators and even the original creator's official emulator (Nintendo's Virtual Console) shouldn't be prevented from being implemented just because one of the creators doesn't like the result.

Now difficulty in implementing such a function IS a valid reason IMO (though I already established that practicality wasn't the point of this discussion).

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#17 2010-02-24 20:58:16

zeromus
Radical Ninja
Registered: 2009-01-05
Posts: 4,668

Re: Filters and resolution

I explicitly invited anyone to implement those features. That's a far cry from prevent. Shut up if you arent going to read what I write.

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#18 2010-02-24 21:04:42

Nintendo Maniac 64
Member
From: Northeast Ohio, USA
Registered: 2010-02-24
Posts: 92

Re: Filters and resolution

I did read.  Understand?  Maybe not.  But I didn't shut up because I still read it and THOUGHT I understood (apparently not).

Either way we're just beating a dead horse and annoying each other.  Shall we call it quits before we kill ourselves?

Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 (2010-02-24 21:06:50)

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#19 2010-02-24 23:25:23

shash
Administrator
Registered: 2007-03-17
Posts: 897

Re: Filters and resolution

Hell, what does he want? Multisampling on the openGL renderer? Isn't that able to get accomplished forcing it on the card control panel (I can't remember, never used the option, always set it up from software)? If not, setting it on render context creation is easy tongue

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#20 2010-02-24 23:41:39

Nintendo Maniac 64
Member
From: Northeast Ohio, USA
Registered: 2010-02-24
Posts: 92

Re: Filters and resolution

I know you can force AA/AF, but I've heard that actually implementing it gives better performance than forcing it.  Honestly I just used that somewhat as a compromise for zeromus's insistence on staying low-res.

Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 (2010-02-24 23:42:05)

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#21 2010-02-25 00:06:30

zeromus
Radical Ninja
Registered: 2009-01-05
Posts: 4,668

Re: Filters and resolution

sure its easy just set GL_NEAREST to GL_LINEAR and recompile and enjoy the bugs

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#22 2010-02-25 00:37:22

Nintendo Maniac 64
Member
From: Northeast Ohio, USA
Registered: 2010-02-24
Posts: 92

Re: Filters and resolution

There's a reason I wasn't arguing based on practicality tongue

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#23 2010-02-25 02:29:31

shash
Administrator
Registered: 2007-03-17
Posts: 897

Re: Filters and resolution

Nintendo Maniac 64 wrote:

I know you can force AA/AF, but I've heard that actually implementing it gives better performance than forcing it.  Honestly I just used that somewhat as a compromise for zeromus's insistence on staying low-res.

I doubt that, give me some solid numbers (a benchmark will do), or just force it on the control panel. Afaik, it just defaults the framebuffer context to be multisampled (on openGL), which is exactly the same you would do by code.

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#24 2010-02-25 02:50:11

Nintendo Maniac 64
Member
From: Northeast Ohio, USA
Registered: 2010-02-24
Posts: 92

Re: Filters and resolution

I said I've heard - I haven't any actual proof though.

Even then, that's no good for Intel GPUs.  Sure they're reletively weak, but these are DS graphics - I'm sure it'd be fine, enough to the point of being able to enable some anti-aliasing.

Last edited by Nintendo Maniac 64 (2010-02-25 02:51:56)

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#25 2010-02-25 08:34:15

Manivo
Awesome Possum
Registered: 2009-02-15
Posts: 655

Re: Filters and resolution

A new challenger appears!

While I figure it's possible to increase the displayed 3d resolution on the emulator level, you're forgetting its not all 3d. Many games (all?) use 2d sprites inside the 3d engine - and even if they don't, the textures covering the 3d constructs are 2d. Now, you can blow up 3d data to whatever resolution you want - that doesn't work for 2d.

In the end you'll have a high resolution 3d world inhabited by some INCREDIBLY blocky 2d sprites, and worse off, incredibly blocky textures - and there goes clarity out the window.


But the most important point here is that the developer you're trying to pester into implementing things you want - Zeromus - just doesn't want to do it. Realize that this is a hobby project, and while suggestions are welcomed and even tolerated to the point of explaining and debating them you've gone way beyond the realm of debating your suggestion. You're attempting to force it down a developer's throat.

This is open source. This is collaborative. Pick up a programming book, learn it, and do it yourself. Otherwise, stop trying to get people to do it for you.

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